indymedia-reboot

Table of Contents

#HASHTAG FLOWS -------
STORYBOARDING -------
FOLKSONOMY -------
TRUST AND VERIFICATION -------
EPICYON UPDATES -------
TEST ROLLOUT -------
OUTREACH -------
EPICYON - NEWSWIRE - UX -------
ORGANISATIONAL PROCESS -------
UX DESIGN - CSS -------
MISCELLANEOUS -------
CANDIDATES FOR EPICYON INSTANCES/ OUTREACH/ TESTING -------
PEERTUBE -------
SAFER TESTING FOR EPICYON -------
FEATURES -------
USE-CASES - PROCESS -------
WORKFLOW/ PROCESS -------

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#HASHTAG FLOWS -------

I use the word flow as the content is always read at source were possable.
so the #hashtags we are reffering to are not necessarily within the text of a post, but rather are actually "tagged" on
?
> like say an #oxfordmc post comes through tagged as such, but without the #meat tag in it's story If the imc crew were militant vegans they could add the tag to the flow.
ah! so rather than forwarding content (as in "boosting" in mastodon), we would instead make our own post, tag as necessary, and link it back to the original source ?

If the imc crew were militant vegans they could add the tag to the flow.
:)
It would be possible to announce with tags
> ok, also, that should not have been "edit" a post - but rather, attaching further metadata Yes. The "edit" function is actually the feature writing were you take text, photos etc from the newswire flow to synthesis a new media object a journalistic overview based on a spread of sources - this becomes a new object linking back to the old object and joins the flow
> so the #hashtags we are reffering to are not necessarily within the text of a post, but rather are actually "tagged" on ? For now i would just add them to the text for simplicity - diffrent CMS could display them diffrent ways
> It would be possible to announce with tags Yep in theory the tags should flow in both directions base on the 5 functions. Am not sure if this is built into #activertypub
To do blue sky thinking, down the road a way. We are taking of self syncing databases connected by human moderated flows/pipes. And then our apps just read/wright to one of these.
I think they call this the semantic web... and plan it from the top down. Were we are doing it radical #KISS from the bottom up.
BUT important to focues that we are rebooting a radical grassroots media network that had a good run at challanging the mainstream a while ago. A part of it was heading towards the fedivers and OMN a part was pushing for silos. It was ripped apart by this fight and the victors on both sides then promptly died in the bloody mess.
Its well to easy to get back into this mess ;)
As its a grassroots project the databases would be running on old laptops or single board computers in your cubbard as well as your local library and school. Of course in there far from perfect way Disney and fox news would join the flow with corporate servers if anyone would connect a pipe to them for the poison to leak out of there decaying island.
Yes
Focus... deep breath... keep it KISS
From a UI point of view should tagging rules be "enter your tagging programming below", or do more hand holding with dropdown selections?
Given that an IMC would likely have some specific tags that they use regularly, and potentially by several moderators
Think hand holding
I would suggest a page much like gitea's labels
where you can set tags for your instance, that are then available for those who write content?
also prevents spelling errors (including for dyslexic folk ;) )
(I say that with a warm smile)
Ok
just my thoughts mind; I prefer consensus when we can get it
> I would suggest a page much like gitea's labels where you can set tags for your instance, that are then available for those who write content? That would be categorys let me find a link

STORYBOARDING -------

maybe we need to write a storyboard of one or more use-cases. This would eventually be good as an actual storyboard for video. But initially it will help all of us to get on the same page regarding process. This also fits in with the work currently being done on the UI.

Good or bad idea?
(sorry if this is a distraction, but something like this, but open source would be ideal imho https://theplot.io/)
regarding the storyboarding tool; it's only because atm we can't be all sitting in the same room, which is the real ideal

> and I will again suggest we should try to "storyboard" a few OMN use-cases.

something to visualise more clearly the spoons and soup ;) that will serve many uses after, but will also make it easier to see if activityPub, and/or other protocols fit the requirements - either directly, or with small KISS additions :)

These need updating https://unite.openworlds.info/Open-Media-Network/Open-Media-Network/wiki/user-storys

https://unite.openworlds.info/Open-Media-Network/Open-Media-Network/wiki/user-storys
Good text; yes should be updated. If could extract the common underlying aspects, it would be ideal as the base to an "explanatory video" of some kind. Without getting too low level, we need to somehow more clearly define the "features" of OMN and the "actors" involved. Something that communicates quickly and as accurately as possible the bigger picture, without a wall of text :)

> Good text; yes should be updated.

If could extract the common underlying aspects, it would be ideal as the base to an "explanatory video" of some kind. Without getting too low level, we need to somehow more clearly define the "features" of OMN and the "actors" involved. Something that communicates quickly and as accurately as possible the bigger picture, without a wall of text :) Copy it into a new wiki page and have a hack on it - these are earlier drafts from the days of RSS before activity pub.
ack
copy or edit?
Copy its a historical document ;)
k. cool

FOLKSONOMY -------

http://hamishcampbell.com/index.php/2020/10/02/folksonomy-and-categories-bottom-up-top-down-open-closed/ the is a good external link to go with this will find it tommorw.
thanks, will check the link
Found it .This is an example of open/closed thinking http://www.stephendale.com/2008/07/31/taxonomies-vs-folksonomies/ its one of the core unspoken devided in tech and at the hart of the #geekproblem Probably an unpopular opinion with w3c folks, but the semantic web with its Dublin and other ontologies was a failure. Folksonomy based semantics are a lot more likely to succeed
> Probably an unpopular opinion with w3c folks, but the semantic web with its Dublin and other ontologies was a failure. Folksonomy based semantics are a lot more likely to succeed Yep I was at the hart of this when actavism was liveing through the pointless open/closed fight.
the trick is finding balance in societies where polarity is encouraged and bred

TRUST AND VERIFICATION -------

I've been wondering, other than by social means, are there also some tangible ways to "verify" and potentially "trust" info (particularly remotely) ?
an easy example would be a photo of a demonstration, or atrocity, that is verifiably geotagged and provably was taken where it's said it was
ultimately, yes, the behaviour beyond the tech is as or more important, but are there reasonable aspects that can be quantified ?
such things would certainly help build more remote trust webs
Its verified by the crowd/community as you will have text, photos etc from the event from different views with some of them by known actors. The event happend.
A single post from a unnone sources needs verification. Its journalism :) based on communerty and trust in that community.
Of course what we lack in the contempery world is these things. In this its the chicken/egg problem ;)
The indymedia reboot is the egg, we are the chickens?
As in everything in this project we look for the solution in the social first. Then look for tech that helps to build this social.
@saunders you ask good questions.
> As in everything in this project we look for the solution in the social first. Then look for tech that helps to build this social. This makes sense

> Yep I was at the hart of this when actavism was liveing through the pointless open/closed fight.

The closed side were only looking to strengthen there silo by centralizing power in there hands in the name of privacy and security. With likely not understanding this on a personal level - total control was what they wanted.

The open side were for the Dublin core as it was a standard in this they were right. But it was so far from human scale #KISS and so top down as to be utterly pointless for grassroots projects - with this the was ripping inside "open" and a block from outside. Nothing good came out.
any co-opting that you know of - such as greenpeace, etc ?
to help lead people astray
http://hamishcampbell.com/index.php/2020/10/18/should-we-use-tech-or-social-to-verify-a-news-source-flow/
ta
good pull from xkdc
> any co-opting that you know of - such as greenpeace, etc ?

to help lead people astray This is a big brain drain when projects become fashernable. So they draw lots of people who see it as a careers stepping place. The is no good solution to this, best outcome is to get them to work hard and they often do, same with the corporate and police spys.
Building strong foundations in the #4opens and #PGA hallmarks are there to medate this problem.
One thing i learned about police and corporate spys they work hard to stay outside the visible process. So keep core process as visible as possible to disempower the damage they can do. Of course this is a balance thing. Somethings SHOULD BE DONE IN WHISPERS OFFLINE.
as with everything - a tentaive balance
you're right though, form what i can tell, that being as open as poss should disrupt some of their behavious
behaviour*
this is a nice tactic in and of itself
The is some impirasisam to this when Mark Keneday was outide as a police spy, all the activists filmmakers and media crew went back over the 10 years of footage to look for clips as TV was hot for them to tell the story. It turns out the guy was largely "invisible" yea you get him in the background of some shots actionaly but in general when ever activists cameras were on he disappearances from sight.
At the climatecamp's he was around the indymedia and visionontv studios we used to run but appers in not a single archive shot.
The only media of him is from intermat "family" events. He obviously had orders not to be visible/leave no trace in our own media.
Its complex...
complex certainly. strangely simple also
This is knowledge worth keeping in mind, while not letting it lead/guide general decision making :)

EPICYON UPDATES -------

Adding the hashtag interpreter
News timeline posts are also now editable

Lets have a video meetup soon to go over the work flow and look at UX :)
Am trying to get my head around were we are at:
We have active programming on the hyperlocal news site - needs UX work, video meetup soon.

Added feed content mirroring capability

Renamed the indymedia theme to indymedia classic
good distinction

Added the publish button option
Added option for full width timeline button header

Added a placeholder version of the modern theme, but it still needs a lot of adjustments

The import of hashtags from feeds is currently buggy
cool
and good to know
Fixed the hashtag import

am I right that there is still one admin, but you've added 'site editors' ?
Yes
are there any major differences between admin and editor capabilities?
Editors only edit news posts or links

TEST ROLLOUT -------

Test roll out, we need more local focused groups preferably with some experience and connection to the fedivers as the radical decentralization is going to be a hard inital sell to groups used to silos.

OUTREACH -------

Need outreach and leads on this one.
Our servers, we need outreach for more moderates and sysadmins - last few did not go well sadly. The spam and right attacks will mount as we do test rollouts.
Am going to outreach to existing contacts and networks agen - we likely need work on #4opens process as currently works fine but is " invisible" to new users #4opens fail.
To keep up momentum would be good to do more online conferences with the videos and Q&A am looking but failing to find them as most are organized inside #dotcons filterbubbles that we are outside of. Will outreach to some #fashernistas who are more in these bubbles. If you can find any please feedback.

we definitely need some mods for mastodon
sysadmins more tricky perhaps

> "..would be good to do more online conferences..." I assume you are talking about more events like APConf. Hacker conferences are probably a good way to go - things like CCC congress in December. The decent ones will have people who are open to more than just tech-wizardry or perhaps even appearing on popular and appropriately themed "vlogging channels" ? (like Joe Rogan ;) ) (vlog or podcast type things) just a random thought

Got a nice list of events:
Recommending to keep the eye open for https://events.ccc.de (https://events.ccc.de) https://indieweb.org/Events (why not start your own indyindiewebcamp) https://www.mozillafestival.org And in general https://beyondtellerrand.com (https://beyondtellerrand.com) and speak with @how about OFFDEM/fosdem

https://events.ccc.de/2020/10/17/rc3_call_for_assemblies/
https://signup.c3assemblies.de/assemblies
food for thought

EPICYON - NEWSWIRE - UX -------

In the original indymedia newswire there were additions and comments. Should those happen in the reboot?
Additions only in exceptional circumstance. Comments yes, we just need to refocus the existing replays and display them as comments, how would this work UX?
With the #OMN the editing of tags become central. We need good work flow and UX on this and thinking on how this fits into activertypub.
I did disable replies on news posts, but I can re-enable that. News posts are just a type of blog post, so replies will be visible in the same way
hamish: are you sure comments (effectively replies) are a good idea?
yes, we should have a video session again soon

A feature of Epicyon, which I think is unique, is that when creating a post you can decide whether to enable comments or not.
i like that
but more generally when looking at what are arguably news articles, I'm not sure they should be directly discussed
i think it's fine that people use mastodon or similar to link to an article and have their own discussin thread
That's why I left out replies on news. I assume they are broadcasts
but I think it's crazy that, say, you can go to Guardian website, and read comments/opinions directly at the source of the article
bashrc: that would be my feeling too
You can still announce a news item and then comment on the announce
In Epicyon there is also a configurable maximum number of replies on any post. This helps to mitigate hellthreads.
Autotagging of news seems to be working. There was already account based autotagging capability, but for news its more generalised with its own language
very nice

> hamish: are you sure comments (effectively replies) are a good idea?

yes, we should have a video session again soon They are key to news - how to make them constructive is another question.

The idea of OMN is that the media objects flot around trailing long threads of metadata with them. Am not sure how this fits into the activertypub speck ;)

To bring comments to the same place they should show up were the media was produced. And we should read the media as much as possible were the media was produced.
> A feature of Epicyon, which I think is unique, is that when creating a post you can decide whether to enable comments or not.

I think in activertypub we end up bracking media metadata thried into bits, though its hard to get me head around this. Is the a KISS way out of this?
As everyone has realised - comments - are hard to do well.
We have a STRESS here between what activertypub is and has been used for. And what the end idea of the OMN is. The path to tread is not always obvious or easy to find.
Activertypub was built with micro blogging in mind and to clone existing #dotcons silos into a federated network.
The OMN idea is a grassroots semantic web of flows of media objects between redundant stored syncing databases. The apps are just spoons into this data soup.
How to build a bridge between the two is our mission while rebooting a project that before it was ripped apart was on the path to do this outcome.
so yes, we should talk soon
The indymedia reboot is a bridge :)

and I will again suggest we should try to "storyboard" a few OMN use-cases. something to visualise more clearly the spoons and soup ;) that will serve many uses after, but will also make it easier to see if activityPub, and/or other protocols fit the requirements - either directly, or with small KISS additions :)
:)

is the newswire currently just for RSS/atom ?
You just follow people in the fediverse. If they write blog posts then they will come through to your newswire
Very low friction
ideal, I knew it was something like that

I'm taking the act of following someone as an indicator of trust. Same principle with the calendar. It is possible to stop someone posting to your newswire if you need to though.
quite reasonable

ORGANISATIONAL PROCESS -------

> "we likely need work on #4opens process as currently works fine but is " invisible" to new users #4opens fail" Are you referring to documentation of some kind? or what did you have in mind?

Important not to get distracted by the open/closed war in the radical openness of the OMN as you can run it "closed" if you like the database and app can reside on the same device and just talk there - like a silo. But as the WWW won over the pre internet silos its the power of open networks that's the social power/change.
Sorry for waxing philosophical, going to go message the openweb events to bring this back to the ground and keep it KISS
> The OMN idea is a grassroots semantic web of flows of media objects between redundant stored syncing databases. The apps are just spoons into this data soup.

Thinking about this, the data becomes a common.
The links flows a "communerty" all outside "capitalism" value syteams.
Blue sly thinking: our current digital architecture is the catholic church.
For grounded "hippy capitalist" thinking on #4opens this is a historical document http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/cathedral-bazaar/ you guys probably know.

I'd come across catb.org a long time back - I should have a better look again. Thank you

UX DESIGN - CSS -------

Me and ana working on next draft look and feel now
cool. i'll catch up tomorrow - must sleep
https://chat.openworlds.info:5443/upload/a2a5d3dedfbda15ed2717f694d212e23f75734a9/aDT7Ba9670RERoqoozkU13VxqbesBSwUjgXMFfDm/yTfay05mRimTLdrvxOeB_A.jpg
https://chat.openworlds.info:5443/upload/a2a5d3dedfbda15ed2717f694d212e23f75734a9/B9vatErSwC7VQM14Do6b6heMi8IjkUjue5IeZxlN/V1prI2O5RCS-x7L5lGuDbg.jpg
https://chat.openworlds.info:5443/upload/a2a5d3dedfbda15ed2717f694d212e23f75734a9/MpFuxVz5AWDq9ZevtOtytDVc6i3LW36hueP3qbEr/rCk4STm5SZasV7CKAaHSsQ.jpg
God its confusing web design. Ok desktop frontpage, second page and mobile.
Befuddled, talk to you guys tommorw :)
Drafts - feedback needed
What's the difference between the news tab and newswire?
There the same - maybe it needs to be the longer "newswire"
hamish: it truly is confusing - another reason I avoid web coding as much as possible :) now try converting all the style "rules" into CSS :p
bashrc: given that you're busy with more important code, should I try to mock these up? you are of course more than welcome to it though
I remember though, that you mentioned the CSS is handled within the Python code right?

The CSS is generated by python. There were some things which couldn't be done with static css
ok cool
It loads the CSS file for the screen and includes it in the HTML, sometimes with modifications to backgrounds.
There is also a search screen with today's hashtags
On the header everything could be a button, but I tried to do it semantically. So if its a button that indicates that pressing it changes the timeline. If its an icon then it goes to a non-timeline screen
The publish button breaks that implicit rule, so that might change.

As am looking at it we have 3 UX paths to mediate. The history of the indymedia project, contemporary web/mobile desighn and the Epicyon codebase.
Of course this is just for the roll out in the growth phase UX can go in any #4opens direction. But for the reboot the linking back to the past is important as we need to bring all the socal and process over to the reboot to keep it on track.
Indymedia process

bashrc: what can I do to help with the CSS stuff?
Do you have the graphics somewhere?
the stuff hamish shared yesterday ? I believe so
There are a few things to do. There needs to be an option for all icons to be buttons.
There needs to be another option to put the header buttons on top of the timeline columns
The publish button option needs adding
So graphics assets and font details
when you say icons as buttons, you mean a text version?
Yes, like the screen shown previously
Right now calendar is an icon. In the screenshot it was a button
ack
is there one particular file in the codebase where the CSS is handled?
ok, so main layout is

banner
navbar
container
- 1 to 3 columns
  and will need to look at how the newswire can be scrollable perhaps; or cropped or paged to the "page height" of the news stories
  how would you like to go about these "options" ?
  It's all in we interface.py
  It's all scrollable, because it's just a web page
  The options will all need linking up to epicyon.py
  And be in config.json
  ok, I will look into it asap
  would you like to split the work somehow ? or would you prefer I look into this, if you have other things to work on?
  If you want to help you could add icons and banners for the new theme
  Also think about whether you want a background image on the login screen and person options
  ok
  will have a look at the code, and get a feel for whats happening

should I be looking at creating a new theme, e.g. "IndymediaPostModernNouveau" ?
;)
I am serious about the question though, if not the name :)
You can make the theme if you want to. Probably base it on Light initially.
theme.py
Add images to the IMG directory and icons to IMG/icons
fonts in the fonts directory

bashrc: when you initially suggested adding icons and banners for new theme,

did you mean the "Default" theme or other?
did you mean creating icon images for buttons that are lacking them?
or is this about making changes to either webinterface.py or epicyon.py?
No not the default theme
You'd need to change theme.py
Icons that you're not using could just be generic

sorry to ask this again bashrc - but what was the reasoning behind having the CSS inline, and also embedded via the code? I have a feeling we should be able to have one CSS file per theme that would just be 'ed into each HTML page.

That would at least keep the styling away from the code - as it should be
We could also manage to get the HTML out, but that's another problem probably not for now :) as it would involve basically creating a template system (something like Django)
damn, you're doing on-the-fly edits in code, to "base" template .css files ... We should be able to find a way to remove a lot of this code :) Unless there's a seriously good reason for it; but I would be surprised if there is.

I truly am not trying to be rude. I am however, trying to figure out how to make this much easier to maintain for you
I want to abstract the code from individual themes. If there was one CSS per theme and I wanted to change variables then that would need to be done individually for every theme, increasing the amount of work.
Also I don't want template frameworks. The way that the HTML is generated needs to be as obvious as possible.
I sort of understand what your getting at
though there are some really good reasons to keep styling and layout away from code
anyway
you still have to individually set CSS values, it's just all mixed up inside theme.py
you could still have a base .css that applies to all themes - and then each separate "theme" .css would be basically like you have each 'setTheme...()' function within theme.py
CSS stays the same, variables change per theme
but CSS shouldn't stay the same - that's not really what it's for :)
the variable's stay them same - like a button remains a button - but in one theme it could be top left and an image - in another theme it could be top-right and tet-only
text*
It's about containing complexity. Avoiding it becoming too large for one maintainter
I agree in principle, I just feel this method increases complexity
but that's allright too - as I'm not the maintainer :)
From a security point of view I also want to avoid situations where things can be hidden in CSS or highly complex template frameworks
Like scripts, etc
which is fair enough - but you still have separate .css file templates - so I'm not sure there's much difference
but I appreciate not wanting complex template system
Arguably, your webinterface.py already is/has a template system - it's just that the html is in the same file
There is only one template per area of functionality, and they can be pruned down to the minimum necessary
but the code is actually obscuring alterations per-theme
and the templates do contain repetition - so they're not being pruned as much as they could be, right?
(hope this all doesn't come off too argumentative, I really am just discussing and figuring things out)
Yes there probably is stuff in the templates which could be removed

as an aside, am finding this a good read: https://www.internetingishard.com/html-and-css/responsive-design/
It might also be an idea to have a version for ultra small screens - smartwatches and KaiOS
Although the mobile layout might be good enough
if we can figure out a clean CSS setup, then adding extra @media should be reasonably easy
...he says
do we want a maximum width for the website content, like a fixed column of 960px wide for instance?
or just to grow with the screen?
try resizing the width of the browser window with this page: https://mediaqueri.es/ala/
vs doing the same with this one (fixed central column when big) : https://developers.google.com/web/fundamentals/design-and-ux/responsive/patterns?hl=en
ultimately, yes it can be switched, but might as well agree on something now
I'm currently working on an html/css mockup that behaves like we want
then, whether it's implemented in the python code, or separately is moot
I'm just looking at behaviour for the moment
There doesn't necessarily need to be a maximum size. The CSS should scale everything such that it should look similar even on very large screens
So you could use a high resolution projector to have a screen on the side of a building

ok, so we always go to 100% width - it's just a choice. sometimes it's nice once you hit a certain size, to only go to 80% for instance
just noticed that mobile view currently loses the links and the newswire. I remember bashrc mentioning something about this, because couldn't do swipe without JS
I'm also exploring how to keep it in the layout, maybe just having them underneath the "features" section
Yes. It adds two icons for that
I see, yes
just found a great feature in the browser "Inspector" that simulates other devices - very helpful indeed
> just noticed that mobile view currently loses the links and the newswire.

I remember bashrc mentioning something about this, because couldn't do swipe without JS The tabs handeal the UI though sweep would be nice for UX as makes it a newspaper metaphor.
JS necessary for swipe - can potentially be added once all other layout stuff is sorted, imo
Would probable help the UX on mobile lets see what some normal people think, can do another outreach next week?

starting to get somewhere with this CSS experiment
can find it at https://indymedia.openworlds.info/css-test/
sorry, not true
at https://indymedia.openworlds.info/test-css/
Looks ok though on mobile the other columns are got to clicking on the tabs or swiping if we implement that :)
ah yes I forgot
at the moment it just follows underneath
I think I can do a CSS-only toggle to show/hide each - so don't have to reload the page
hmm, thought maybe not
seeing as they have their own pages as you say, via the tabs
Keep it KISS :)
either way is technically KISS ;)
I'm just thinking it's a waste of a reload, because in the mobile view, the content is still there, just hidden (unless bashrc is selectively not sending the data via code - which I personally think would be more complicated to maintain)
hamish: can you and Anna choose a graphical banner/header please.

You'll want at least two sizes, one for mobile, one for desktop - something that is ok when it gets cropped a bit (different devices will have slightly different dimensions)
Then we can have a separate logo, that we can scale with CSS
And any text should be actual text, so the CSS can cleanly work with this as well
a little homework for you perhaps ;)
But confusing UX for the user. Give people control to see one thing at a time :)
Ok will get back to the designs
Needs to crop
I just mean it should be a graphics that doesn't look bad when cropped, specifically from the right-hand side
the height will stay the same
atm, the settings are
mobile = max-width 400px
tablet = width 401px to 960px
desktop = width 961px and above
I did not totally make these up, but they are subject to choice
e.g. according to Firefox:
Galaxy S9 is 360px x 740px
iPhone Plus is 414px x 736px
(we can also take into account whether the device is rotated, but I don't think we care about that for now)
KISS after all :)
iPad is 768px x 1024px
so
I might suggest 3 versions of the same banner:
one with width 414px
one with width 960px
one with width 1920px

The heights are up to you. As a screen is resized, height will stay the same (easier) and the width will simply be cropped off on the right hand side, until the next smaller banner gets loaded
also - to jump back to UX for news/links - for now, when we get to "mobile" view, I will just hide the content, and user can use the tabs - as you suggest
> atm, the settings are

mobile = max-width 400px

tablet = width 401px to 960px

desktop = width 961px and above Thanks will make one
cool :) just an image/graphics - we'll do logo and text separately
bashrc: Do you think integrating the final CSS will be troublesome? I think this approach should probably work nicely for Epicyon in general. Though I'll probably have to look properly at your naming conventions to minimise messing with your existing files. For now, I'm just trying to nail down the general layout and behaviour
I don't know. It depends if it contains any good ideas
hehe, fair point
Mainly I want to avoid having to maintain separate CSS files per theme
I've not touched on themes yet, so no worries there
from what I've seen, Epicyon basically has a single column approach - width 100% width - and scaling based on screen size. so desktop version ends up having a quite "zoomed in" feel which is of course fine if that's what you're going for
as I've said before, I don't want to tread on your toes regarding epicyon in general
I don't have large monitors, so difficult to judge
There could well be a case for a different layout on large high resolution monitors, as might be used in a news organization
At large scale the columns might not need to be a percentage of screen width
hopefully we can find a balance
also I was wrong about the scaling
it's mainly just 100% width
I did notice that strangely some stuff actually gets bigger when you shrink down to "mobile" widths
and things like avatars scale a bit as screen gets wider
maybe images in general
It does. Things need to be bigger when the pointing device is a finger
ah interesting
ok makes sense that links and buttons get bigger, but maybe not reading text in general
and btw, your PGP text gets tiny
I'm just playing with epicyon.freedombone.net atm
I hope you realise I'm not criticising anything, just feedback :)
(I'm quite paranoid when it comes to discussing things like this in text only... intonation and tone of voice doesn't translate well ;) )
So there might be two other layouts: one for smartwatches and feature phones and another for large screens
The pgp text is supposed to be tiny. It mainly to enable copy/paste
Constructive criticism is fine
cool
also, I'm fairly sure that regardless of the outcome of my CSS experiments - should you choose to integrate it, we can do it with the same method you use atm, or as separate themes :p When I say separate .css for each theme, it would basically just be a file for each of "differences" instead of a separate function for each in themes.py - so wouldn't be much different, though I'm failry sure it would simplify the code, and make it easier for you to maintain - I could be wrong though of course
Ok
> from what I've seen, Epicyon basically has a single column approach - width 100% width - and scaling based on screen size. so desktop version ends up having a quite "zoomed in" feel which is of course fine if that's what you're going for as I've said before, I don't want to tread on your toes regarding epicyon in general Is that why the UX looks soft? I have 14" laptop with HD screen and it looks soft and retro.
hamish: indymedia.openworlds, or epicyon.freedombone ?
> hamish: indymedia.openworlds, or epicyon.freedombone ? Think this was more the orgional theme we had the new one looks sharper.
https://chat.openworlds.info:5443/upload/b9992cbdcc90436bf54f728c53b701c171d18f6f/BMVxCkPQjQDUPdEKDzm1NIugSWjO4YSTu84wfJaA/01.png
that's my view atm, pre-login
the "default" theme or the "indymediaclassic" theme?
not sure exactly what you mean by soft
The modern theme is a work in progress
So it doesn't look like the mockups yet
Is there any font you prefer? I've used CheGuevara so far.
no worries - it's all WIP - I'm just hoping my experiments will prove useful/simple enough - it's pretty basic so far :)
I'll defer to Hamish and Anna re fonts
My experiments are pretty close to mockup I think - but of course at this stage I'm not taking into account other content that's present in Epicyon code and .css
Trying to install conversations on anas phone on google play and are asking for £2
So she can talk phonts
Ok
There is also quickly, although I expect you run your own xmpp server
Quicksy
hmm
Installing fdroid on her phone
fdroid good package manager :)
Yes
https://xmpp.org/software/clients.html
astrachat maybe, but I'm having quick read around
quicksy looks good
Conversations is the best one
ack
quickys based on conversations anyway?
Installed it off f drode
Configrring for our server
cool
Qyicksy is conversations with a default server and a paid service
ah right
:/
But easy for average users because they don't need to deal with choosing servers
Basically a silo run by the developer as a revenue model
I have mixed feelings about all that "easy to use" approach
exactly
Except that it's not as closed as whatsapp
if people don't learn that regardless of what they do, some effort is involved, they will always end up screwed, and "not understanding why"
fair point, but still
Yes
btw, I'm not at all just talking about tech :)
ignorance, and feigned ignorance are frustrating
"Easy" often translates to "Silo"
Ok @ana is here
Hi :)
Hi ana
hi ana
welcome to our humble abode
(or den of iniquity, I'm undecided)
:)
> Is there any font you prefer? I've used CheGuevara so far. We have used Helvetica on the template
interesting read here: https://www.internetingishard.com/html-and-css/web-typography/
Nice I'll a read. It's an interesting subject
Ok
ana: it really is - too much for my little brain atm with all the other layers though :)
I'd hazard to say in general, that's the best web coding site I've ever come across - at least regarding the 'html-css' section
The link is actually quite useful as we're designing a photo book (with a few stories) of our travels
nice
typography is an amazing subject, and ideal for such an endeavour
web vs print is also something to keep in mind
trying to find a good example for you
I'll look for a Helvetica catlike. I think the original font is proprietary
Heh
a-like
Autocorrect
haha
yeah, think you're right, it's proprietary
ana: this kind of info is good where you can find it: https://medium.com/rareview/typography-on-the-web-4cd494d6b165
also looks good: https://careerfoundry.com/en/blog/ui-design/beginners-guide-to-typography/
and the extreme (dirty google i think): https://material.io/design/typography/understanding-typography.html#system-fonts
ok
I'll stop now
Liberation Sans is close
A bit straighter though
Nimbus Sans is closer
Let me take a look
The Nimbus Sans looks alright
> and the extreme (dirty google i think): https://material.io/design/typography/understanding-typography.html#system-fonts ok I'll stop now :) I'll def take a look at the links. Thanks so much
most welcome
Nimbus Sans L is GPL license, so should be ok
It has the curly R
:)
Also, think I'll go through the image assets, and create .svg versions of everything suitable
basically all the buttons and symbols
In the modern theme does the links tab edit the links in the left column?
Thinking about UX
Given that publishing is really about writing a feature - even though it's sources will be from the newswire - I wonder should the 'Publish' button be in the 'Feature' section?
and should the word, in fact, be "Publish"
?
that makes sense for once an article/blog post is written
should it not be something like "Draft Feature" ? or "Compose" ?
I realise their might be history to this word, but I still think it's worth considering carefully
Is features effectively just instance blogs? A local timeline for blogs.
hmm, good question
In this context, I am beginning to think they would be blogs, written by any of the IMC members, or collectively (Hamish ?)
and they would require some consensus before publishing ? or at least would require some time without objection - as with moderated newswire items ?
> Given that publishing is really about writing a feature - even though it's sources will be from the newswire - I wonder should the 'Publish' button be in the 'Feature' section? and should the word, in fact, be "Publish" ? that makes sense for once an article/blog post is written The are two publishing actions

User - publish to the newswire (named) Editorial collective - propose feature then consensus publish to newswire (as site)
Sorry last should be publish to fetures
> should it not be something like "Draft Feature" ? or "Compose" ?

I realise their might be history to this word, but I still think it's worth considering carefully Let me look back at the language used will get back on this one
> Is features effectively just instance blogs? A local timeline for blogs. Best not to use the blog word as this is a term that was never used at indymedia.
> In this context, I am beginning to think they would be blogs, written by any of the IMC members, or collectively (Hamish ?) They are written/concessed buy the group and published under the group name.yes this might be the work of an individual but its never published under a individual's name.
> and they would require some consensus before publishing ? or at least would require some time without objection - as with moderated newswire items ?

Starting to understand the confusion. Think the is some mixing of of the workflow of the newswire and the features. The newswire just needs a moderator to let a post through.

The features have the consensus process.

User - publish to the newswire (named) Editorial collective - propose feature then consensus publish to newswire (as site) So the 'newswire' is combination of local user posts and also those from feeds beyond the local server (from trusted/moderated sources)?
Let me look back at the language used will get back on this one Cool, no worries
Will get the banners done tonight
> So the 'newswire' is combination of local user posts and also those from feeds beyond the local server (from trusted/moderated sources)?

Yes.

> Best not to use the blog word as this is a term that was never used at indymedia. I believe it is just the terminology used by AP and epicyon internally. I think bashrc was just trying to connect the two terms. So, a user (journalist, etc) might make a "news item" ("post" in AP terminology) which will go to 'Newswire'; but the collective (IMC) makes a "feature" ("blog" in AP terminology) which is published to the 'Features' page. Correct me if I'm mistaken > They are written/concessed buy the group and published under the group name.yes this might be the work of an individual but its never published under a individual's name. bashrc : I think this means we need a 'feature' actor ??? or ... - the IMC itself should be a user (perhaps the instance admin - but not sure) - this would be a group user I guess - I'm not sure how to resolve having multiple normal users (journalists, etc), and then one group user (the IMC) that the other users can also publish under make sense? > I believe it is just the terminology used by AP and epicyon internally. > I think bashrc was just trying to connect the two terms. > So, a user (journalist, etc) might make a "news item" ("post" in AP terminology) which will go to 'Newswire'; > but the collective (IMC) makes a "feature" ("blog" in AP terminology) which is published to the 'Features' page. > Correct me if I'm mistaken Yes > ... The newswire just needs a moderator to let a post through. > The features have the consensus process. Thanks > Will get the banners done tonight cool as an aside - the css test is getting close to the mockups now I think - and the "feature" page is also there need to figure out how the Links and Newswire pages should look

MISCELLANEOUS -------

interesting? https://dweb.happybeing.com/
hmm, dammit, another blockchain i think
oh, maybe not
intriguing - has a cryptocurrency but apparently no blockchain - on the surface looks like a very interesting approach
Do a #4opens review
Ok agender
what i dont understand is why all these potentially great ideas/approaches all feel the need to have an intrinsic currency
makes me wary

CANDIDATES FOR EPICYON INSTANCES/ OUTREACH/ TESTING -------

Debian plant look like it has multiple feeds https://planet.Debian.org
Planet
ok, so the two RSS and atom feeds are the same content I think
then tehre are two xml docs that I think give moderator contact details
maintainer*
wow, and then a separate feed for each author, it appears
hmm, so planet.debian is itself kind of a "conglomerate" feed
yay :) permaculturenews.org has an rss feed
I would love to pull these guys in
for reference of the type of content : https://www.permaculturenews.org/feed/
media.ccc.de has a few RSS feeds - separated between news, general updates, and podcasts i think
I guess we would be remiss to not try double down news https://www.doubledown.news/watch?format=rss
is this too mainstream? https://www.aljazeera.com/xml/rss/all.xml
.
Yes, any project which has a planet blog could potentially also be a news instance. It's a similar kind of idea.
cool
also we had these guys as masto bot test, maybe we should try wrangle them into a more independent instance also: https://www.democracynow.org/pages/help/podcasting

Another is good would like to roll a test one out for the london lifeboats to see if that crew bites. Would be good learning experience even if they don't.

PEERTUBE -------

good info re peertube: https://github.com/Chocobozzz/PeerTube/blob/develop/FAQ.md#should-i-have-a-big-server-to-run-peertube
and perhaps this is a throw back to when we once talked about easy-to-set-up boxes that people could just plug in at home https://docs.joinpeertube.org/#/contribute-architecture?id=redundancy-between-instances
The orgional peertube was tecnolagy nice but socially a big disappointment. The was a lot of pushback on addressing the moderation/federation problems, i was pushing the need on github. The last few versions are supposed to have addressed the social, have a feeling they have not actually done this... need to get our server back online and updated to see if this issue has moved. Good to get it back online as well to handle the - networked - side of publishing video to the indymedia reboot.
am currently configuring our instance to get it back up
:)

ok. https://visionon.tv/ is back up
hopefully it's stable enough to tweak and get things going
Fantastic :)

Looking at the moderation in the backend of the visionontv peertube thats now back online. Thanks @sanders
Out of the box it still seams to be a train reck. Working my way throughout it.
:) it could be worse
You do choice to fallow intences and weather they can fallow you - good
You have no way i can find to put a instance on moderation so you get all the content or no content - this fills your site with a mess if you add another site.
Crap
The might be ways to medate this am looking for them
Ok finding stuff - you can mute users from other instances on your instance.
Ok am useing this to remove all accounts from submedia in non english at the moment just trying to work out moderation can add them back
ok
sounds good
The is no moderation cue so anything you mute is actually blocked. Looks like only on/off for flows. This is bad.
As no opportunity for collective work on translation/reedit/or building of trust. Its just blocked.
ok the submedia feed is rearly long and the is no way to do fine bulk moderation so stoping trying for now.
Clear fail.
the plugin we talked about earlier might help
maybe reach out to peertube community, see what they have to say
or suggest

SAFER TESTING FOR EPICYON -------

I should probably set up at least one other instance that's for testing before rolling out to indymedia.openworlds.info ...

FEATURES -------

How do you promote/create a feature?
If it's from someone you're following then it will come straight through to the news timeline
If its an RSS feed then add a * for it to be moderated
To create a news article from scratch select Publish
hamish: to create a new feature, there's Publish button at top of the newswire
I'm still not sure of the process of 'newswire to feature'
at the moment, am I right that the central column represents what should be "feature" content, but for now they are just the trusted contents of the newswire and any moderated content that does not get flagged to prevent full publishing
?
whereas do we want it that the "features" column and page should only show articles written by the IMC itself, which may (should) be linked back to some content that passed through the newswire ?
> whereas do we want it that the "features" column and page should only show articles written by the IMC itself, which may (should) be linked back to some content that passed through the newswire ? Yep

So features should only be local articles to the instance?
Produced by this imc

USE-CASES - PROCESS -------

last thing before i head off then. This is what I'm now picturing - either of you should feel free to correct me or contest :)

Say we have the scenario of a journalist Alice, who's just a 'user' of an IMC in London
She's logged in one day, watching the newswire
Their IMC is following feeds from on-the-ground tooter, bloggers and photographers in Lebanon
Alice notices a flood of items on the feed, initially mainly tooters and photographers
She decides to write an article (feature), so clicks "New Feature" button or tab
This page also has copy of the newswire, but with checkboxes
She marks several toots and photos related to an ongoing incident; these are her cited sources
She then writes her post, with integrated #hashtags, and maybe a separate list of tags, or some such
She publishes and the Features page is updated
In my head, this now means (I think) that other IMC's or individuals would most likely be following a 'feature' actor - as opposed to the 'news' actor - and the newswire is internal (though viewable if someone visits the site directly (or for some reason chooses to follow it)

I'm not sure
food for thought - good night

hamish: are you connected with https://indymedia.org ?
or the org.uk ?
The domain is held by ACE social center in Edinburgh last time i checked. The process to free it up for use might or might not be ossified depending on the whim of the admin there. Going to ask when we have some test sits running successfully for a time.
re the domain: good to know. no stress there
re the accounts on epicyon: I'm not sure myself
@bashrc how to get the posts from the personal account to the newswire :)

There are no Notes going to newswire currently. Only Article type posts
Potentially that could be added, but I thought it better to keep general chat out of the newswire
So currently all AP newswire posts are blog type
so visionontv account would have to publish a blog post, and then the news actor would pick this up (assuming it's following it) and publish to newswire ?
Yes

WORKFLOW/ PROCESS -------

> last thing before i head off then. This is what I'm now picturing - either of you should feel free to correct me or contest :)

Say we have the scenario of a journalist Alice, who's just a 'user' of an IMC in London

She's logged in one day, watching the newswire

Their IMC is following feeds from on-the-ground tooter, bloggers and photographers in Lebanon

Alice notices a flood of items on the feed, initially mainly tooters and photographers

She decides to write an article (feature), so clicks "New Feature" button or tab

This page also has copy of the newswire, but with checkboxes

She marks several toots and photos related to an ongoing incident; these are her cited sources

She then writes her post, with integrated #hashtags, and maybe a separate list of tags, or some such

She publishes and the Features page is updated Yep, that's pritty much a way to do it. The important thing is to link to thus credit the orgional posters of the text/photos ect as this is one of the #4opens the ux we can get creative about. But good to keep it as KISS as possible.
But the is a problem why is london indymedia posting about Lebanon - the should be a london connection remember its a grassroots project and this might smell of top down. In the old indymedia this was gotten around in various ways. By putting in a connection to london - the journalism game. But as coders this is in no way our decision its up to the collective as long as the post comes from stuff posted on the newswire it up to them how they play that game.
The above workflow sounds OK, linking back to sources
> In my head, this now means (I think) that other IMC's or individuals would most likely be following a 'feature' actor - as opposed to the 'news' actor - and the newswire is internal (though viewable if someone visits the site directly (or for some reason chooses to follow it) I'm not sure food for thought - good night

Yes other IMC tend to fallow the features with hashtage modifiers of other imcs by "trust". The newswires can be federated by hashtag as well but this is a bigger "trust" so more likely to be moderated. Agen we as coders play no role in this decision its all dealt with by the editorial clective flicking the 5 functions switches.

Its kinda confusing to hand all the configuration to the collective. But its the core project, of course not every codebase has to live up to this just like the #4opens its graduated 2 opens is bronze, 3 opens silver and 4 opens gold any project that has to 2 opens can be a part of the network... but some are better than others from the #4opens perspective.
Epicyon is a gold #4opens project :)
> Yep, that's pritty much a way to do it. The important thing is to link to thus credit the orgional posters of the text/photos ect as this is one of the #4opens the ux we can get creative about. But good to keep it as KISS as possible.

Update

Ok had to think about this in the old days this was the workflow. The clective worked on a open email list. Anyone could join and propose a feature by posting the text to the list or a url to the story on the newswire.

The editorial crew would then add links and text maybe bring in a few more links off the newswire and then ask for consensus. If nobody disagreed in 24 hours it went up as a story.

We need to think how to keep the spirit of this but update it to modern thinking UX.

My orgional plan is to use the gitta as it has all the functions. Open for ideas?
Its importent that the collective "own" the feature storys and not an single person. Of course the people who create the resources that create this collective story are credited by links. In this the newswire is the voice of individuals and the features are there to amplife there voices and bring them into a "community voice" ie. The voice of authority in simplistic terms "truth" is a social one.

Its a VERY clever project.
And brings "truth" back into the social world. Something these rearly messy times are missing.
cool - this is steadily becoming more clear to me (at least in the general overview)
regarding London posting about Lebanon - it was pure "random" example - I guess they could be an IMC in London of Lebanese community. Either way, I was not imposing anything ;) the example was regarding the flow
It brought up a good point so good question.
I think if we can get this flow nice for Epicyon, it will give us a pretty good idea how to achieve similar in other mediums - such as Gitea
well.
Thats the plan
If we pull this off we might be one of the only working media operations left in the world as tredtionalmedia is all bought and grassroots is crap or selling out. Would be a worthwhile thing to reboot/build working grassroots journalism.
agreed
gitea as you say is pretty nicely set up for collaborative work. the difficulty there is how best to integrate the newswire and publishing.

It would potentially be a more separated workflow, where:

"newswire" could be each IMC members personal mastodon/twitter/etc accounts, or just personal contacts (for instance)
gitea is then used for organisation and writeup
publishing could be tool of their choice (blog, custom website, WP, etc)

it would be much more up to the collective to organise their own methods... where as the Epicyon approach is effectively self-contained

> gitea as you say is pretty nicely set up for collaborative work.

the difficulty there is how best to integrate the newswire and publishing. It would potentially be a more separated workflow, where:

"newswire" could be each IMC members personal mastodon/twitter/etc accounts, or just personal contacts (for instance)

gitea is then used for organisation and writeup

publishing could be tool of their choice (blog, custom website, WP, etc) it would be much more up to the collective to organise their own methods... where as the Epicyon approach is effectively self-contained

I was just think of it as an organization space for the collective https://unite.openworlds.info/indymedia/Editorial-Collective/issues have tried two old school indymedia journalists over the last few months but both bounced.
We still need to do the changes to the wording on the gitta to medate this bounce problem - its a good tool for organizing but the termanolagy is all programing so alion to media producers.
I think this mostly explains the bouncing... need to make the changes and try agen as we are using it for project organising first and programming second.

As the core programming should happen on the programmers gits as we are doing with epicyon seams as work well fine so far and pushes the grassroots and away from centralisation which is sadly always a problem that will come back and we need to keep in mind.
yes - we have the tricky situation that we are using one instance of gitea for both developing code, and for trialling it as an IMC organisational tool
It is looking like we actually need two instances :s
One that can look like "normal" gitea, with some minimal style changes - where OMN code is developed, and documented, and where the wiki is used to provide How-To's for using the tools in the repo for running different aspects of an IMC
And another that should look quite different, with different naming conventions, possibly quite distinctly re-styled, to not be confused with the coding repository. This would be one of the tools that is developed in the first repo.
But I'm not sure I'm happy with this
- it would mean that the OMN repository stays where it is - as it's focussed on tools ?

and the indymedia repo would move to the new instance, where it can live as a working example of an IMC ?
One major issue I have with this is that gitea lends itself to hosting multiple organisations, and multiple repositories per organisation.

But we would be encouraging only one IMC to run per instance - promoting self-host and decentralisation...
I think we may need a video call to discuss this?

―――――――――――――――――――― With all the work happening on the chat we lose the public faceing gitta which very much reduces the opening for more people to get involved.
Can we take stuff off here as we come to conclusions on issues etc and post them over to the issues there so we can have a history.
For example i cant find the link for the css mockup as its lost in the chat - much esear to find it as an issue and i can also post this issue out to designers to bring more people in. Win and win.
The chat is clearly not #4opens and am going to get a pile if shit from the more conspiracy minded on this as well. Had a conversation with a editor on this all ready. I pointed them to the gitta but they bounced.
If this keeps happening we become a secret cabal controlling them. I know this is bonkers but its a very rearl, real world problem. That will start to cover us in shit as the project rolls out.
We need to just point to the gitta and say all the process is there.
We live in rearly messy times.
true
the chat is really good for bouncing ideas quickly, but as you say, much of it should end up in the gitea
One of the reasons I like etherpad - kind of halfway between jabber and gitea ;)
I use gajim as my xmpp client which has a nice search :) But yeah, we need to decide on a process for copying content over
the problem is that we can discuss several topics here in one space. but extracting the content is a pain
perhaps we could tag our comments when they are based on a specific topic. e.g:
[css-test] the website is https://indymedia.openworlds.info/test-css/
[UX] some stuff to do with ux
this way, even if we're not consistent with spelling, I can just pull out all the messages that start with [some text in square-brackets]
should be much easier to process
bu I'm open to suggestions
but*